In Response to Mikhail Savelev

A 'disourse' in World Carnivore Tribe where I lost my cool with Savelev over his repeated assertions and lack of data to  back them up.

​Mikhail Savelev
11 August 2019Guys. Arguing against raw meat I would state the following. Imagine an ancestral environment where you have to live off what you hunt. So if you managed to hunt a game you would extract more calories from it if you cook it, rather than eating it raw, apart from that it sterilizes it from pathogens and preserves it for longer. Basically if you ever happen to survive in the wild you’d better cook your meat, you’ll have a much better prospect to survive and to thrive. In the wild every calorie counts, not only the calories you manage to intake, but also the calories you expend metabolically as well as moving around. What do you think?

• Gregg Sheehan Why would we be any different to other carnivores? Which other carnivore has learnt to cook?
  
  
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan humans historically are not carnivores, but omnivores
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  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan we can’t just physically extract same amount of calories from raw meat like a lion can for example
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Mikhail Savelev, please don't go down the 'calorie' line. I argued against that in my rebuttal of Wrangham https://dietshack.weebly.com/catching-fire.html
    Delete this
    DIETSHACK.WEEBLY.COM
    Catching Fire
    Catching Fire
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Calories certainly do matter. The link doesn’t load idk
    Hide or report this
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Mikhail Savelev, don't give me that shit. You cannot have possibly read my rebuttal, let alone the book in this amount of time. You are making an assertion, not an argument. And you haven't even bothered to read my argument. Humans are most definitely facultative carnivores. There is no real definition of an omnivore. Please study L. L Amber O'Hearn.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Hello? I said the link to your article does not open. I can’t read it
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan It loads fine in my part of the world.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Not my problem then
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Try this, since your part of the world chooses to censor stuff. https://www.evernote.com/.../AFBHHeCvkLZGYIP.../
    Delete this
    EVERNOTE.COM
    Catching Fire
    Catching Fire
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan As a matter of interest can you read my CICO page? https://dietshack.weebly.com/cico.html
     
    
  • Gregg Sheehan What about loading my website? https://dietshack.weebly.com/
    DIETSHACK.WEEBLY.COM
    Gregg's Diet Shack
    Gregg's Diet Shack
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan If you can get to my website you could navigate to 'Basics>Human History>Catching Fire to read my original rebuttal.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Otherwise I cannot help you without an inordinate amount of effort to repeat what I've already put into writing to explain that protein (except for cooked eggs) is not appreciably diminished by not cooking it.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan You will have to do your own research, (as I already have) to establish that fact.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Chapter 3
    The Energy Theory of Cooking…See more
    
    ACADEMIC.OUP.COM
    Compared with Raw Bovine Meat, Boiling but Not Grilling,…
    Compared with Raw Bovine Meat, Boiling but Not Grilling, Barbecuing, or Roasting Decreases Protein Digestibility without Any Major Consequences for Intestinal Mucosa in Rats, although the Daily Ingestion of Bovine Meat Induces Histologic...
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan as it turns out, I can copy and paste ok from my original article. If you want rebuttal on the other chapters of the book, let me know.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan
    Gregg Sheehan I’ve read your Evernote article. I should say it didn’t make me change my position. Raw meat is less bioavailable for humans, and I wonder to see a study confirming the opposite. Your site doesn’t open. I am in Moscow, Russia
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Thanks Mikhail, I wonder if you have any peer reviewed studies to show that we consume significantly more nutrients with cooked rather than raw (and I'm not concerned about calories - because that isn't a thing} (calories is a measure of heat generated out of a given substance - you will get more heat out of petrol than broccoli - would you rather eat petrol or broccoli) (that was a trick question because I know you wouldn't eat broccoli ;)
    
    
  • Dean Dumbeck link loads fine for me
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Calories are a primary reason we consume food at all. Without calories you won’t maintain energy balance. And ofc it's meaningful to intake only foods that we are able to extract calories from (not petrol). The question is about calorie and nutrients extraction efficiency. And it is greater in cooked food compared to raw, meat is no exception. I don’t think that such studies about raw vs cooked even exist, because it's already accepted in the scientific community and it's basically common sense. Not even touching the infection risk from raw meat and the complications of its storage
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan The problem with your theory, Mikhail, is that you ascribe properties to foods (because of 'calories') that do not properly exist. Just as the calories of petrol do not apply to us, neither do those of carbohydrates. When you think about it, all that really matters is whether we get all the micronutrients and macronutrients we need and in the right quantities. If we consume protein and fat and satiate ourselves, we will be properly nourished if those proteins and fats come from appropriate sources. The science shows that we do not have substantially differing amounts of nutrients from raw vs cooked meat - so why be concerned?
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan it’s pointless, you deny common knowledge
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Well that is an assertion, Mikhail, but you are clearly not following the peer reviewed articles that suggest otherwise.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Perhaps, Mikhail Savelev, you did not read this in one of the links I provided
    "The mean true fecal digestibility of meat proteins was 97.5% for raw and cooked meat, except for boiled meat (94.5%) and roasted meat (96.9%), for which digestibility was slightly but significantly reduced by 3% and 0.6%, respectively. This result is consistent with a previous study carried out in humans, in which true ileal digestibility tended to be reduced by 4% when meat was cooked at 90°C for 30 min (compared with 55°C for 5 min)"
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev What’s the citation
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/146/8/1506/4584673...
    
    ACADEMIC.OUP.COM
    Compared with Raw Bovine Meat, Boiling but Not Grilling,…
    Compared with Raw Bovine Meat, Boiling but Not Grilling, Barbecuing, or Roasting Decreases Protein Digestibility without Any Major Consequences for Intestinal Mucosa in Rats, although the Daily Ingestion of Bovine Meat Induces Histologic...
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Please provide citations for your assertions, Mikhail Savelev
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Because I'm getting a bit bored with your arguments and its nearly 4:30am here and I will be be going to bed shortly.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan just for no reason for 2 millions of years and nowadays people spent time and energy and the struggle and expense to make a fire and cook meat on it. Just for the fact that it actually becomes less bioavailable than eating raw.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev I looked up the topic on google scholar, but didn’t find much relevant studies. I believe it’s for the reason that there’s no need to study what is already obvious and common knowledge
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan You seem not to realise that we developed our big brain and small gut over 2 million years and over the last few hundred thousand years (of cooking and plant eating) that we have shrunk our brains by 11%. You are not looking at the big picture, Mikhail.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Plus the fact that the majority of people would find the idea of eating raw meat disgusting and gross. We evolved this feeling of disgust even to touch raw meat for the reason that it is not good for our bodies
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan You dickhead, I'm 65 years old and my mother was feeding me raw meat since I was 5 years old (from my own living memory). I have no revulsion of raw meat. This is your own aberration. I'm going to bed.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Our brain might have shrunk for a multiple reasons and there’s no way to prove the one actual reason why, rather we can only speculate. But still the only explanation is that during those thousands of years there was a lessening of selection evolutionary pressure concerning the brain size. More than that intelligence isn’t actually linked with the brain human size.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev I feel sorry the discussion went emotional and personal for you. My intention was to keep a rational discussion. I wish you good night and nice sleep.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan You haven't realised it is about my own experience rather than my knowledge, based on my experience and research. You have not responded with any peer researched articles and in my exasperation with such non-response (and no research) I resorted to calling you a 'dickhead' - hoping to at least get you to come up with some science. It appears that I was correct.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan The 'dickhead' comment wasn't so much emotional and personal as more a comment to get your attention and see if you could rationalise your thinking and do logic. But apparently you cannot
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Lol it's your point unconventional, so it's your business to support your bizarre claim to the scientific community. I have other things to do than to counteract with unconventional views of rude people on the internet. I will go the biology faculty of my university and ask actual scientist that will provide me with explanation and research.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev It's same as trying to convince a flat earth society member that earth is a sphere actually, that is common knowledge and does not require peer reviewed studies
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Give me science
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan I've provided you with plenty. but you have come up with assertion
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan We cannot be bothered to have you in our other groups if you cannot come up with actual science to back up your assertions
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev I told you that nobody researches this nonsense. Look google scholar yourself. Research is costly to conduct. My view coincides with conventional scientific view so it's not my need to bother finding studies for it
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Think about it. Nobody in this community eats fully cooked meat. Most of us eat it rare or blue. That means that the 'outside' is burnt, but the inside isn't. Just THINK!
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan it's only accurate about beef steaks, that can be eaten rare. Not all people in carnivore community eat rare. Moreover the majority of people on Earth eat meat fully cooked. And it is for a reason
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan But not for bioavailability or energy, which is what your post is about!! You were talking about 'calories' - which is bullshit You have absolutely no idea about nutrition. Study my pages if you can find them from you country - otherwise Good Luck
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Study nutrition from you, professor of what exactly?
    Gregg Sheehan Lukas Hrdlicka, thank you for your comment. However, I started off fairly benignly, but got more aggressive as the arguments got less scientific. Please show me where I went wrong.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Please, Mikhail Savelev, come up with some scientific debate!
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan there are no scientific research on the topic!! so we have to rely on available evidence and common sence
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev One study on rats is all you have got to prove me wrong and base you whole belief system on?
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan The problem is with you dumbcunts who don't understand science You have asserted that your 'belief' is that you get 'more calories' out of cooked meat, but you haven't responded with any science that contradicts the science.
    
    I've SHOWN that 'cooked meat' doesn't have any fewer OR more calories than raw meat. I've shown, quite conclusively that the number of 'calories/ in raw beef is exactly the same as the number of 'calories' in cooked beef. Please come up with at least ONE study that refutes me!
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan just ask an expert in chemistry or biology to comment on the topic. Neither me nor you is an expert to argue about the issue. The one study on rats doesn’t prove anything
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev And keep yourself civilized
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan That was quick, Lukas. Who gives a fuck when the argument is unscientific.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Please read the debate (including the references) in order to make a judgement. My civility is less restrained when I feel an insult to my intelligence.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan And an insult to my intelligence WAS made.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Lol your intelligence, professor...
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Michael Frieze, Esmée La Fleur, Hugh Khan, Malaena Medford I was banned from Principia Carnivora by Gregg Sheehan for my post here?!!?? It is my favorite group and I feel like a family already. Please restore my membership. You can read the whole post, Gregg was openly insulting me calling me and others dickheads and dumbcunts for my point of view
    
    
  • Mason Miah-Moore Hahahahahahaha what the fuck did I just read? This conversation went nowhere and a grown man acted like a toddler. Oh my gosh.
    
    Anyways, interesting writing, at least. Nice to learn stuff.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Yes, I apologise for my uncivilised responses to the two of you while I am quite inebriated with alcohol. I should not have been so rude. I am still drinking whisky, but I will attempt to provide a civil debate.
    
    While you might attempt to insult my lack of education with the disingenuous title of 'professor', you . might do well to think about what a 'professor' is qualified with. Is it not the knowledge that s/he has gleaned over a number of years of study?
    
    You have still not met my peer reviewed science with a dignified response
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Lukas Hrdlicka He banned me from Principia Carnivora
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Mason Miah-Moore He banned me from Principia Carnivora
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Too bad
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan In Principia Carnivora we welcome debate, but you must back it up with some sort of science - not assertion.
    
    
  • Mason Miah-Moore While I can't personally find anything indicating a difference between cooks vs. raw, minus some enzymes being cooked off, I very lightly cook simply for personal preference, except organs.
    
    The ONLY thing I've found about cooked being easier to digest was a quote from a professor on Quora, a question and answer site (uncertain of he is verified either, but according to the featured article, yes) -
    
    Not a formal study, so I don't really buy into it.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Let us bring Malaena Medford and Hugh Khan into this discussion as well
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan You are drunk and you violate rules and insult people and abuse your power as an admin
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Just answer the questions
    
    
  • Mason Miah-Moore However...that took one teeny google. I understand providing sources, and peer-reviewed scientific ones are definitely ideal, but it isn't necessarily difficult for EITHER of you to do your own research and just have civil discourse about it or theorize.
    
    The whole "you gotta provide me with the education" thing always irks me when it is an internet argument. Like, you're literally using the world's fattest, most information-dense encyclopedia. Type some shit. Lmao.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Lukas Hrdlicka I guess he thinks banning me from another group would make his position stronger
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan No, it just makes the group stronger by taking out people who have illogical arguments
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan This is where the 'debate' turned personal (just in case anybody is still watching)
    Mikhail Savelev: "Gregg Sheehan it’s pointless, you deny common knowledge"
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan You can make all the appeals to the admins of the other group you like, but you aren't going to get back in until you make your peace with me, Mikhail.;
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan All you have to do is come up with some science rather than assertions.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Then, I'll be happy to let you back in
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Lukas Hrdlicka did I refer to you? What made you think I was talking about you? Unless it was the fact that you were taking the same position as the other poster of course;...
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan I told you that there's little to non research on the topic. It's not my problem that scientists haven't yet investigated the issue.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Maybe you just don’t need to ban people while being drunk abusing your power as an admin of another group? You upset me a lot with what you did, apart from open public insults of me and other people... Principia Carnivora is of high personal and emotional value for me that feels like a family already. I am following this group since 2014 and knowing a lot of people there and them knowing me
    
    
  • Danny Allen Hale Jr. Travis Statham Gregg Sheehan is overstepping his boundaries by punishing Mikhail with a ban from another group because of a disagreement here. Hes also being highly rude.
    
    
  • Elisabeth Lazzarini Gregg Sheehan curious why you have been drinking so often lately .
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan Not just a disagreement, more of a direct insult, (which he has since seen fit to delete). I simply responded in kind - since I figured that might get his attention and perhaps get him to look at the data I was putting up and maybe at least respond with some well thought out logic and plausible argument (including evidence) instead of simply the assertions he has continued with. The group he got banned from does have a rule about coming up with evidence to back up one's objective claims. I realise that it is not a rule in this group - but I banned him from the other on the basis that he wasn't able to distinguish.
    
    
  • Gregg Sheehan However I'll let him back into the group in the hope that he will think a bit harder about his objective claims and insulting dismissals of other people's debate and reasoning.
    
    
  • Mikhail Savelev Gregg Sheehan Better stay away from your computer while being drunk. You are objectively not right and everyone has pointed out that. Inside yourself you obviously know that and it’s all on you. I have a PhD in psychology and your behavior is pretty transparent to me
    
    
  • Levi van Tricht Mikhail Savelev you never backed your shit up lol